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But why Flipkart?
  • Of all the ecommerce sites in India, Flipkart stands out - not just execution, but as a company that has actually focused on building a sole/scalable business.
    But it beats me when I came across Flipkart advertising on keyword 'Infibeam Books'
    image

    Before you comment on this topic, do keep in mind that Flipkart is advertising across all "<key>+books" keyword and while this could be just a case of keyword injection without filters in place (they aren't advertising on rediff+books, but have bought keywords for india+books), the team needs to be just more careful regarding brands (friendly suggestion!).

    After all, very recently Bharatmatrimony filed a case in CCI against Google India for letting competitors advertise on Bharatmatrimony keyword.

    * - hat tip: raxit of m4mum.com
  • 31 Comments sorted by
  • IMO, you should be allowed to advertise against the keywords of competitors. A trademark does not prohibit another party from mentioning that trademark. You can not use that trademark to label your product or service or to create confusion. But you should be able to mention the trademark. If it isn't going to be allowed to use the keyword in the ad copy, at minimum it shouldn't be prohibited to bid against the keyword. This really applies more to the Bharatmatrimony case because as you mentioned the Flipkart ad is just a dynamic ad.
    Founder of http://www.coupondunia.in, India's largest coupon site.
  • If you allow advertising against a trademark keyword, except Google nobody will benefit (i.e. keyword auction).

    @sameerparwani - its not about mentioning - its about snatching users/customers from that brand. Normal users tend to click on the first 4 links and if Flipkart is allowed to advertise on Infibeam books, then Infibeam should file a case against Flipkart to get a refund of money Flipkart made from users who came thru' the ad - this is what happened in Europe in a similar case.

    After all, its not just a mention - its advertising in the pretext of another brand.
    I am the founder of Pluggd.in.
  • @sinha, legally it comes down to confusion. Are you tricking or confusing users into thinking you are or are selling something that you are not. If I am Toyota, I should be able to say "We make better cars than Volvo" and that should extend to search engines. If someone is looking for "Volvo Sedan", Toyota should have the right to run an ad for their own cars against that search.

    In the USA, what I described above is allowed and has been tested in court. It's the most logical way to do things. Copyright and Trademark should not limit free speech. You have the right to talk about your competitors and to market to customers who are looking for your competitors. You just don't have the right to confuse those customers.
    Founder of http://www.coupondunia.in, India's largest coupon site.
  • @Sameerparwani

    Free speech is one aspect,  but in this Ad, do you see anything like free speech ?

    If any report comparing flipkart vs infibeam and FK is telling they are better than other, it is free speech, Putting Ads like these are NOT free speech in any way,

    What is your thoughts ? Is this Ad related to Free speech ?
  • Btw this happens all over the place. Search for "yatra flights" and you get makemytrip, via, ibibo, expedia, etc ads. This is nothing new or even all that controversial. What is controversial is using the brand's name in your own ad. There is really two issues at play: a) bidding against the keyword b) using the keyword in your ad.

    Part A I say is clear cut you should be allowed to use it. Part B I can see arguments on both sides but I would still side on allowing it to be used where it's not confusing. Google takes the safe route legally and does not want to sit and arbitrate every dispute so they will remove ad copy with trademarked names if it receives complaints. 

    As for Europe and most of the world, you can bid against the keyword except in Australia, Brazil,China, Hong Kong, Macau, New Zealand, North Korea, South Korea, Taiwan according to http://support.google.com/adwordspolicy/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=144298
    Founder of http://www.coupondunia.in, India's largest coupon site.
  • @raxitshet, this ad is not a good example because it's a template ad (dynamic ad). But if the user had searched for "buy books on infibeam" and instead got an ad for "India's Biggest Online Bookstore - Flipkart" I think that is totally reasonable.
    Founder of http://www.coupondunia.in, India's largest coupon site.
  • http://www.google.co.in/search?q=buy+books+on+infibeam
    if you search for "buy books on infibeam", you still get Flipkart ad with the brand name in ad text.


    I am the founder of Pluggd.in.
  • @sameerparwani

    1. Showing competing Ad is fine
    2. Using Competitors name,trademark to mis-lead user is not fine.

    In this case, it is 2.  While in yatra, fligh search it is case 1.


    Raxit
  • @sameerparwani

    As Ashish and you have mentioned,  just check the link Ashish has posted. Looks like complete blunder

    I have put tweet here,
    https://twitter.com/#!/raxit/status/168946075896516608 &nbsp;

    hope, @flipkart will revert
  • @sinha, it's up to Infibeam to inform Google they want to block others from using their brand name in ad copy. What Flipkart is doing is not illegal, but Google will prevent it if Infibeam protests. Google does not want to be considered party to trademark infringement (which may or may not be occurring depending on the particular country and specifically on how the text is being used and what the landing page contains).

    I would agree that the ad as is is completely nonsensical. What is "Infibeam books" anyway. I don't even think they are doing it intentionally, if there were they would have come up with a better ad like "Cheaper than Inifbeam" etc. But if they wanted to do it, I would have no problem with it. Fight to gain your competitors customers as long as you aren't doing anything to trick the customers.

    Btw, Google's process for protecting your brand is a one-time thing. You prove you own a trademark and thereafter it can't be used as part of the ad copy in the countries where the trademark applies.
    Founder of http://www.coupondunia.in, India's largest coupon site.
  • @Sameerparwani

    What about already lost business by this type of  un-ethical  intentionally or un-intentionally ?

    it may be fault of Google  Or Ad Agency or Flipkart,  but finally  Infibeam is sufferred, correct ?


    Raxit
  • @raxitsheth, it's hard to answer your question because the ad as currently worded is indeed confusing. But not in a way that is confusing that favors Flipkart. So, if Flipkart was intentionally being confusing to aid itself, I'd agree that is unethical and illegal. But if Flipkart fixed their ad to make it clear they are a competitor, I'd have no problem with that ad. In that case, Inifbeam might suffer but that's because Flipkart is being a better marketer not due to illegal tactics

    As is, the ad is unintentionally confusing. I don't really know where that goes on the legal scale. My advice to them is: "Advertise all you want on your competitors brands but make sure its clearer".
    Founder of http://www.coupondunia.in, India's largest coupon site.
  • @sameerparwani - legal or illegal (frankly, even Google doesn't know the answer and will continue to allow competing bids till somebody files a lawsuit), but the key point is to ensure that the brand has certain value.

    This sleazy tactics doesn't really work - it's the start of a bad DNA in the company and I certainly hope Flipkart team understands this, before their marketing agency takes over the brand.
    I am the founder of Pluggd.in.
  • @sinha, there's been tons of lawsuits over the issue in many different countries. In most developed countries, the judiciary has already given clarity on the issue. The general decision has been keyword bidding is okay but trademark use in ad copy is sometimes legal and sometimes illegal depending on its use. Of course that varies by country but this is the most common outcome around the world so far

    But, besides that, what part do you find sleazy? Is it sleazy that the ad is confusing? Or does the sleaziness start with the mention of Inifbeam in the ad copy? Or is bidding on Infibeam in the first place sleazy?
    Founder of http://www.coupondunia.in, India's largest coupon site.
  • I was also boggled by one such Fb ad, I saw a few months back where oDesk (an upcoming outsourcing platform) used Elance (a market leading outsourcing platform) in it's ad creative and copy. Click on the link below to see the screenshot. 
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=190982260980415&set=a.137241159687859.37525.134206879991287&type=1
    My qn is whether this type of advertising is ethically/legally allowed?  
  • @AnkurrS, what is wrong with that? Why are Indians always for regulations, censorship, restrictions, etc. 

    If I run oDesk and I want to grow my userbase, one of the cheapest ways to do so is to find users of my competitors. So, why not market directly and strongly to Elance users? What's so taboo about saying your competitors name?
    Founder of http://www.coupondunia.in, India's largest coupon site.
  • If i were the founder of Infibeam, i would have filed a law suit by now. Its not fair on FK's behalf to do such a cheap marketing gimmick.! 
  • Morality of doing business seems just dead from the World.....
  • @AnkurrS: The funny thing is that I happened to see Elance do the same thing! Unfotunately I didn't think of taking a screenshot.

    I'm quite surprised that Flipkart would do that.
  • A lot has already been covered, so little to add here. But, if you speak with a digital marketing person, this happens all over the world and common practice. If you drill deeper, the branded (your brand and competitor) campaigns typically outperform other campaigns so there is a lot of incentive to do so.

    Ethical/Unethical, Legal/Illegal are different issues.  It is a similar discussion we could have  if you use a brandname in a URL, examples like . redbusoffers.com, flipkartsucks.com, infibeamoffers.com.  If the websites or landing page (from PPC) is deceptively similar then it is a different issue.

    If you report to Google and raise an exception they might consider disallowing such ad. But typically it is a function of ad spend.  Big spenders like Direct TV, Dish TV are able to get stringent restrictions placed on such bidding vs small players. 

  • @trivediravi

    Not agree again with you. Providing competitive Ad is one aspect and Hijacking other brands is totally different.



  • @sameerparwani - It is not really about restrictions or regulations etc. Infibeam irrespective of their current size VS Flipkart have spent their own time and money in building up a brand. This to me is a preemptive strike by Flipkart and as @sinha mentioned it is the start of bad DNA in the organization.

    You might argue that keywords can be freeform so maybe Flipkart is really offering a collection called Infibeam Books unrelated to its competitor whose name also happens to be Infibeam (not valid here but just wanted to make a point) In such a case a legal restriction would just create a mess. However this specific case seems like a clear choice to advertise on a competing brand's name. 

    I think companies should decide for themselves how much to infringe on someone else's brand. If this is how they want to grow then so be it. As long as Flipkart is offering great services I don't think end consumers mind. It doesn't really bode well for the eco-system IMO.
    Newbie start-upper - one half of FlagTrue (http://flagtrue.com), wannabe guitar god, survival cook, sometime cyclist.
  • Partially i agree with all comments of @Smaeer @sinha @Raxitsheth @tirvediravi // 

    I feel, this is kind of lazy work by SEM guy inhouse or agency. There are sophisticated tools out there to make intelligent choices on keywords and tracking competition display + keyword ads. Try to get essence of the competition ads across the spectrum and be creative. A lousy job shall get wrong impression like the one we read above from the panel. Probably subconsciously consumer will also not like it as well..if u confuse them.

    BT 
  • illegal or not, as a consumer of search services (albeit, non cash paying type) i feel cheated by this kind of advertising.
    In the early days, Google search used to show Ads on the right side of the screen so you could focus on the actual search results. Now you are forced to look at them as they are on the top and you need to scroll down through them to see where the actual search results start.
  • Abhishek_T 

    No offence. But this thread is already started i guess. Please Check. 
  • As an (e)Xoogler, I can say that this is wrong. I think definitely infibeam wouldn't have allowed Flipkart to use their brandname for advertising as they are competitors. According to Google's adwords policy this is a violation. An online shoe vendor might advertise using brand names such as nike, adidas etc. But he can't use the competitor ecommerce player's name as a keyword. Hope I am clear.
  • @ Madani: Ya saw that, but I wanted to bring into notice about Justdial doing too. Justdial being the leader in its business uses these tactics to remove/fight competition.
     
  • Also check out this picture guys.
    Its really sad to see big players doing this.

  • I don't think that www.onebookforlifesuccess.com will be life changing - try this it will be life changing motivational 
  • Sorry for being late to the party(almost a month since last comment) but I just found this forum...

    Basically as mentioned above Google doesn't allow this as policy, but lets it slip by not building stronger algorithms to catch violations in Adwords. I believe this policy is put in place to cover Google's behind because another way of looking at this is that Google is forcing me to buy ad space by selling it to my competitors sort of a defensive buy kind of a scenario which is good argument for me to sue Google.

    But then nobody can stop your competitor from buying the billboard outside your shop, but then again suing Google is easier and lucrative than suing the billboard owner.

    Another point to be noted is that flipkarts adwords is on auto pilot since over a year because some of them ads are still configured based on their old website's URL structure which does this to them ads now http://www.gounder.co.in/blog/20111108/does-flipkart-verify-the-ads-run-by-their-agency/

    So they aren't thinking ethically or non ethical they are busy trying to make TVCs I guess!
  • Google doesn't allow this to happen for the big brandnames.  Try buying "Sony" as a keyword for a text ad and see what it throws up.  So Google needs to do a better job at indexing and identifying brand names and ask for automated site ownership before selling that keyword.

    Facebook does allow it but then again, it has always been more "open" than Google.  (no going off on tangents here)  :-)

    Ideologically, the brandname as an adwords bid term should not be sold to the competitors or the highest bidder since the investment in the brand equity has been made by the owner.

    On the flip side, organic (free market) search should not be restricted either, so if "buy books online infibeam" leads to Flipkart as the first result on Google (organic search results), then so be it.  That just means the competitor did a better job with word placement, meta-optimization and has a higher trafficked website overall.
    Runs http://www.SabseBest.com - India's lifestyle shopping mall

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